The other day, as I sat here wondering what to post for my SleuthSayers column, I received an emailed request from an editor for an interview about the way I write short stories. I agreed, he sent me the questions to answer, and one of them was How often do you revise and edit your work? The day after, before writing more of the piece--or do you complete the work, then go into revision mode?
I dutifully responded to that question (and to the others), and only afterward did it occur to me how good a question it was, because I know a number of writers who approach editing and rewriting in many different ways. And--full disclosure, here--I also realized that this was handy fodder for a SleuthSayers post.
Another thought that struck me was something I heard years ago: A good teacher doesn't say, "This is the way you do it." A good teacher says, "This is the way I do it."
So . . . (though I'm no longer a teacher) what do I do, with regard to writing and revising a manuscript?
The whole process, for me, happens in three steps:
Step 1: Planning. I get an idea and--since I'm an outliner--I put the whole story together in my head, start to finish, mostly visualizing separate scenes. It might change a bit later, during the actual writing, but I have to have the entire story, including an ending, in mind before the writing begins. And yes, I know that's not the only way to create a story. But it's what works for me.
Step 2: Writing. I write (type) the first draft of the story, from beginning to end, in all its rough and unedited glory. During that draft, I sometimes substitute letters or abbreviations for characters' names--H for husband, W for wife, N for neighbor, V for villain, and so on--and insert brief notes in certain places like "come up with with a reason for this" or "add detail," or "add background," etc. In other words, I write down the flow of the story, all the way through, and leave out anything that might slow me down.
So no, I do not "edit as I go."
NOTE: I know many, many writers who do. They write, let's say, an opening to a story, and when that's done, they carefully edit that opening, making sure that section of the story is as perfect as they can make it--and only then do they go on to the next section. They write a few pages of, let's say, the middle of the story, and then edit that part, again making it as perfect as it can be. Then they write the next part, and edit and revise that. And on and on, all the way to the ending. The result is, when those writers are done writing the story, voila!--the story's finished. I mean, completely finished--there's no need to edit or rewrite further. They're ready to send that story out into the world and have it make something of itself.
Step 3: Editing. When I've finished writing my rough draft, I go back to the beginning and edit the entire story.
3a: I often use a triage approach. By that I mean, I might address the most important things first, like plot holes, continuity problems, timeline differences, weaknesses in structure, etc. I also, during this "step," try to plug the needed information into the place-holders I had put in during the first draft: explanations, clarifications, background details, names of characters, whatever.
3b: Then I move on to matters of style: strengthening sentences and paragraphs; correcting errors in grammar, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, etc.; making the dialogue snappier, weeding out unneeded words, and finding and fixing really minor issues like typos, backward apostrophes, and so forth. During this step I read and re-read the story, trying to do it through the eyes of a reader and not a writer. The last thing I do here is run the whole thing through SpellCheck and then read it one more time, looking for things SpellCheck won't catch, like typing "doe snot" when what I meant was "does not."
3c: Finally, I take a hard look at the formatting of the whole manuscript. Spacing, margins, indentations, italics, scene break designations, fonts, page numbering, other header information, etc.
I should point out, here, that I actually have two reasons for doing all this the way I do, rather than "editing as I go."
Reason #1: Doing that info-dump first draft gives me the feeling that I've put a safety net in place. I like having the whole framework down on paper (well, on my hard drive) before I start editing anything. That probably goes back to being a plotter instead of a pantser. I need that reassurance. And having that ending securely in place, even though I might change it later, keeps me from wandering off the path during the middle of the story.
Reason #2: I sometimes, during the rewriting stage, I think of new things that might change and improve the flow, or even the outcome, of the story. If I edited each section "as I went," these later changes in the plot would probably require me to go back and change things earlier in the story to make my later changes work. I might need to add all kinds of foreshadowing info. If so, I would be forced to completely re-edit sections that I'd already spent a lot of time editing. That's extra work. I don't want to have to go back and add and decorate another room on the bottom floor of the house I'm building when I have already begun building the second and third floors on top of it.
One final note: I don't do multiple drafts of a story. I write a first draft and save it with the story name as the file name, and when it's done and I start editing it, I type the edits directly into the first draft. So when I finish, I have one and only one file of the story. And these days, I usually don't print the story out at all. Everything--the writing, the editing, and the submitting to a market--is done electronically. I do, however, have an automatic backup of everything, both on- and off-site. I should also mention that I'm one of those odd people who actually enjoys the rewriting and the polishing of a manuscript. I know lots of people hate that part of writing. What can I say?
So, good or bad, that's my process. How do you do it? Do you edit as you go? Edit every page before starting the next? Write a certain number of pages or words a day? Stop writing with a cliffhanger so you'll be inspired to continue the next day?
Whatever it is, if it works, great. Do whatever's best for you. And vive la difference!
I'm close to your procedure, John! In both short stories and novels, I have to know the ending before I start writing. I simply don't have the confidence to start writing and know I will find a good way to end, particularly in a novel. As novels take me 1000 hours to write, I live in fear of wasting 200 hours, and then discovering I am hitting a wall, with no good way around it. In short stories, I see the whole scene/s in my head, and get that first draft down! There may be gaps, and I might think of a better way on rewrite, but the bones are there. And like you, I write over my last version, so there is really only one draft saved.
ReplyDeleteHey Melodie. Yep, even in writing short, I don't want to start until I know my crazy idea is going somewhere and can produce a satisfactory ending. When I DO know that, the pressure's off and I can get down to rewriting and polishing. I'm pleased to hear that you think the same way. But I know a LOT of writers do edit as they go, and as a result have less rewriting to do when the story's finished. Different strokes . . .
DeleteIn my case, I proofread and do a Grammarly edit each time I submit. In fact, I finished a proofread and am about to do a Grammarly edit for my Ruth Snyder book to update on Kindle and prep for another attempt at an audiobook version on ACX after the previous narrator hasn't followed up past the deadline and hasn't been in contact. The book comes in just 280 pages and had to upload to Grammarly in five parts, as they now prefer uploads in 60 page increments.
ReplyDeleteI don't use Grammarly, but if it helps you, that's good. And yes, for God's sake proofread, proofread. Things still get past me, but the more times I go through it the better it turns out.
DeleteGood luck with the new project, Justin! Keep me informed.
I tend to go back to the very basics - A4 Student Refill pad, and several reliable old fountain pens. That initial method 'slows me down' and makes me think about the characters, dialogue, situation, action/reaction. Then once I have the start of something, I'll type it up, editing/refining as I go. Print that off, then work on it just before going to sleep, and adding more (again, via the pen). Following day, review, brush up, type up, print off. Repeat.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I'll leave a piece for days until I feel I can progress the storyline - but it's still the same process - write/review edit/revise progress to end.
Works for me :)
John, I know lots of writers who do it the same way you do. And It's always interesting to me, to find out what others' processes are and whether it works for them.
DeleteThe end result is always what matters, right?
Thanks as always.
Like you, John, I start with a plan, a rough idea of the shape of the whole story. I have to have an idea of what the ending's going to be before I start, though the plan will likely change some as I go (usually, I end up needing fewer scenes than I initially thought). Once I start writing, I follow the method I've been told Hemingway used. Write a few pages; stop at a point where you have an idea of what comes next; when you come back, read through the thing starting from the beginning and making changes and edits as you go. By the time I get to the end of the story, the opening pages have been through several rounds of revision. Usually a couple more reads/edits after I have the ending satisfy me that the story is done.
ReplyDeleteAlso like you, I just save all this work as a single draft, so I don't really have separate drafts showing different stages. I'm starting to wonder if I'll need to change that habit so I can provide proof of the developing composition should I ever be accused of using AI.
Hi Joe. You might be right, about the future need for multiple drafts to "show" the progress of a story. So far, of course, that's never been an issue. I am always surprised, though, that SO many of our fellow writers have ALWAYS done separate (sometimes numbered) drafts, printed them out, etc., etc. I guess I just have never had the patience or seen the need for all that.
DeleteAgain, different processes for different writers.
Thank you as always, for the thoughts!
My process is (1.) think up a story; (2.) write/revise as necessary, producing only one file in the computer, similar to many other people's processes; then (3.) leave the story alone as long as possible before going back & doing further edits. After all this, if I think the story is good enough, I submit it for publication. This method is really, really slow, but I have been getting good results in recent times.
ReplyDeleteElizabeth--good to hear from you. As said before, if you're getting good results, you're doing it right!
DeleteMy difference from your process is probably that I can't seem to make myself wait a week (or however long) before going back to it. I admire you for your patience!
Thanks for the comment!
Back in the pre-word processing days I wrote in longhand on legal pads, printer greenbar paper, or whatever was handy. I would revise as I wrote. Because retyping was such an odious task, I looked at typing my story as the very last, final revision. Then Word came around and I started composing on a computer, printing out the manuscript and revising on the printed document and then returning to the computer. Recently my computer crashed and my usual computer guy wasn't available to fix it. So I returned to pen and paper, and found I enjoyed it. So, my current process is as follows: I get an idea from something, like finding a dime in my car, or my daughter finding an athletic shoe in a lake, or, most recently, that same daughter seeing a turkey vulture in a Fort Wayne cemetery. I get a vague story idea and start writing, on paper, revising as I go. When I finish that very rough draft, I go back and edit it again. The process of creating a .docx file is the next editing step. I then print it out and edit it again, and email the document file to proofreaders. Final edit, then press submit! I write stories for fun, but often dread getting started any given day, much like dreading homework during my school years, so I need to get beyond my procrastinating and start to work, which I always end up enjoying. I have no habits and no rules except as I proof if something stops me as I read I know it's stopping me for a reason and I attack it again. And speaking of procrastinating, that's what I'm doing right now so I'll have to stop here and get back to my turkey vulture!
ReplyDeleteI did that too, Floyd, before computers came along. Wrote the story longhand, edited it longhand, put off typing it until it was as perfect as I could make it. Boy would it be hard to go back to those days!
DeleteAs mentioned, I seldom write anything in longhand anymore. I type stories straight into the computer now, edit them there, submit them from there. Like you, I suffer from procrastination, but only with regard to other activities--I somehow never procrastinate when it comes to writing because I truly love doing it.
I'm glad, though, that you put off your day's writing long enough to stop in at SleuthSayers! Thanks as always.
John, your method is almost exactly how I used to write a novel. The longest task was creating an outline, actually a scene-by-scene storyboard because my mind doesn't work in a linear manner, so plotting is difficult. I concentrated on the novels (15) and only published about two dozen short stories until 2020. Then the Pandemic and my own health issues changed the playing field.
ReplyDeleteNow, I get an idea for a story and let it simmer for a few days. I usually think I know the solution/ending before I start writing, often backstory and description that will probably be cut later, and it may only be a page or two. The next day, I edit that and continue. Again, that might only be a couple of pages.
Eventually, two things happen, usually around the fourth or fifth session. One, I find the real place to start the story. Two, and I only recently understood this, I hear the story's VOICE. Once I find that, I finish the first draft quickly. Then I let it sit for a week or so and go back and cut extra words and polish the details, especially dialogue and that voice.
Wait another week, print it out for the first time, and walk around the office reading the whole thing out loud. That's where I notice glitches in the rhythm and fix them.
I save each draft as a separate file in case I want to restore something, but the first "complete" first draft is usually "D" or "E."
Somewhere during the process, I may find a title I like better, too. That becomes "A" under the new title.
I don't recommend this method to anybody else, but it seems to work for me.
Steve, your comment reminded me of a couple of things. First, I too often spend several days mulling over an idea before it really becomes what I think would be an effective and marketable story. (I think that's time well spent.) The second thing is, I too sometimes decide to change my title in midstream, especially if I feel that my original title might be a little weak. (Oddly enough, two of my most recently published stories were begun with only their titles in mind.)
DeleteWhere you and I differ is this: It sounds as if you allow some time to pass between some of the "steps" taken to complete a story. I admire you for that--as I said earlier, I don't seem to have the patience required for that. Once a story firms up in my head, I usually write it, rewrite it, and submit it chop chop. I probably need to slow that down a bit.
As always, I appreciate your comments and always learn something from them! Take care.
The most important line in your entire post is one many people will overlook: A good teacher doesn't say, "This is the way you do it." A good teacher says, "This is the way I do it." That nails it perfectly.
DeleteThank you, Steve. I've forgotten where I first heard that, but it does make sense. Too many instructors, including writing instructors, seem to think there's only one way to do all this. Sometimes there is, but usually there are many ways.
DeleteJohn, the need for a safety net resonated with me precisely because I write "into the mist." (I can't say too often how I hate that term "pantser.") It's only when I've written that first draft all the way through, spilling out everything that comes into my head without censoring myself, that I know for sure I have an ending. After that, I can relax and start revising, sometimes ruthlessly. I can change the ending, whodunit, whatever I want. I always cut ruthlessly. Not only my darlings but anything that makes me wince or squirm has to go. Prose can never be too tight. Even once it's published, I've found bits I could squeeze out when asked to read aloud for 4 minutes or 3 or 90 seconds. Not only those pesky adverbs everyone's so mean to get chopped. There are all those subordinate clauses that hang out letting Santa do all the work.
ReplyDeleteHey Liz. Yep, I used the word pantser even though I know it irritates you, but I figured you'd forgive me because I was trying to write "tight," and prose can never be too tight, right? (How's that for being sneaky . . . ?
DeleteI couldn't agree with you more, on "ruthlessly revising." When I'm rewriting, I'm always surprised at how often I used too many words, and I truly do try hard to cut out the unneeded words and phrases. That's part of the beauty, I think, of flash fiction.
Once again, whatever you're doing, it must be working because I love your stories. (Have you forgiven me yet, for saying pantser? I really do like the word.)
How about if we called outliners plotzers? That would even things up. If you have to look up "plotz," ignore Google's summary of the Merriam-Webster definition as regards curly hair and dangling earrings.
DeleteLiz, I'll agree to plotzers if we can call your team wanderingwithoutamapzers. That does sound better than pantsers. By the way, remember that I'd rather do it your way than mine--I just don't have a choice.
DeleteSorry, that was me, not Anonymous. I'll figure this system out, one of these days.
DeleteOh boy, what a lot to think about! Planning, plotting, scenes. An old habit of mine: if I think too much about something, I often don't do it. (You know: wash windows...ah, that's an awful thought. Hope it rains.) ( I really don't wash windows.) My stories are generally character driven. Jim and Larry, detectives, what kind of trouble are they in today--and off goes the story. Sometimes I don't know how severe any character's problem will be, but there's sure to be something that needs fixed. The characters, both main and secondary, lead the way. My mind gravitates toward the snappy, funny side of problems and people, so they take on a life of their own as the story reaches it's peak. Yes, I have to edit as I go. Sometimes read the opening again but try more often just to let the story tell itself. Edit, edit, edit, let it sit a few days, and then I use read aloud for catching what my eyes don't see. I love the challenge of a theme, too, and bounce the characters all around the required circumstances. I have a lot of ideas for characters and stories that come in sleep. So disruptive...and if I remember them, I do write that particular story. No drafts saved, I just work on the original...but I save in various ways. 2 flash drives, cloud, doc.x files, some paper on short stories but trying to get over the end to save paper copies. That's a hard habit to break.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I wish I was more disciplined but, the notion to plan and plot just thrill me like the actual story as it evolves.. So far, I've never been stumped by what the characters say and do. A surprise more often than not. When I run out of ideas I'll change my ways! Maybe.
Thanks, John, for another great conversation and lesson.
What? When you run out of ideas? You'll never run out of ideas.
DeleteWil, you say you're not disciplined, but you sure sound disciplined to me. And I agree that our characters are fun to write and can certainly drive the story--in fact in most of mine the antagonist drives the story. But that's a while 'nother subject.
Thanks for the thoughts!
Ah...see... I rushed thru the above comment and see two errors: Trying to get over the need to save paper copies. The notion to plan and plot just doesn't thrill me....
ReplyDeleteI knew what you meant, in both cases. See?--no editing was really necessary!
ReplyDeleteIn most cases, I'm a pantser. I start with an opening scene and start writing on my computer. I'm writing to find out where it takes me. Sometimes I bog down after a few pages. I'll let it sit for a while and go back to the beginning and start again.
ReplyDeleteLike most people here, I don't save any of my drafts; only the one I'm working on. When I finally reach an end to my story, I do a reread to look for any necessary changes (things that don't make sense. Characters who suddenly change their names, etc.)
Then the final read is for grammar.
Very interesting topic, with lots of interesting responses.
Bob, I'll tell you what I've often said to Liz Zelvin--I don't know how in the world you folks who don't outline DO it! I admire you and I'm in awe of those who can start writing with only a blank sheet in front of them, without first knowing where you'll wind up. I wish I *could* do it that way!
DeleteYou and other have surprised me today by saying you save only the draft you're working on. I have always done that, too--I never save more than one draft of a story (my first draft gradually becomes my final draft) but I have always pretty much assumed that other writers do separate drafts and save each one in a different file. I can't figure why anyone would do that, but I honestly assumed they did. I learn something every day.
Your note reminded me of something else, too: I have had many, many characters accidentally change their names, with Ellen on page 2 becoming Eileen on page 8, for example, and I do try hard to catch those errors. I am sad to have to say I have occasionally missed those, and had to contact the editor afterward and admit my mistake.
Yes, I do enjoy learning everyone's process. Ours is a crazy business. Thanks as always!
John, my process through the first couple of steps is shockingly similar to yours, right down to the placeholders. The one thing I don’t do is H for husband, W for wife, etc. That’s a great idea, though, and I may steal it.
ReplyDeleteWhere I split off is before the sentence-level stuff, I do several passes just for voice. I start with the POV character, since their voice is also the narration, and edit only their dialogue and narration. Then I go through the other major characters one at a time and edit all of their dialogue. I basically try to stay in one person’s head until they sound like themselves.
Of course, while I’m doing that I usually find a plot hole or realize something else needs fixing or have another idea, so in go more placeholders. That usually adds several more passes to clean those up before I finally get to the sentence-level editing.
Hi Nikita -- YES I like your idea of focusing on voice. I think I do that also, but not consciously. I do sometimes spend awhile (during the "planning" stage) making sure I have the right person telling the story. A good lesson for me, on that, was seeing how successful certain stories (Shane, The Great Gatsby, To Klll a Mockingbird, etc.) have been in making the viewpoint character be someone other than the main (title) character. I also agree with you that I sometimes find and correct some things while searching for other kinds of errors. And--again--this whole area of editing/rewriting is a fun part of the whole process, for me. I like polishing and trying to make it all better.
DeleteThank you, Nikita, for these thoughts!
You're a lot more organized than I am. Although .... for a book I do a rough outline: these are the characters, this happens, then that... there are gaps and the ending is a bit up in the air but I have that safety net you talk about. It's good to know it's there even if I diverge from the path once I start writing. Short stories are different. I tell it to myself, usually in bed, before falling asleep. Then I start writing and it rarely goes the way I sort-of-planned. I write a few pages then stop (usually at an exciting point so I know where to go the next day), next day I reread and change stuff, it moves like that in hops and skips, editing as I go. Then it sits for a few weeks and things change again when I pick it up. Eventually all the stones in the field have been picked up and the story is ready to go. Good post, John!
ReplyDeleteMartine, if I'm organized in the way I do all this, it's only because I have to be, in order to make it work. I assure you I'm far less than organized in my daily life.
DeleteI know what you mean about setting up that safety net for your novels, and of course one can be less structured when planning a short story than when planning a long work of fiction. But I know the more I do up front, even for the shorts, is a guarantee that my end result will be better and will happen quicker. It's just the way I started out doing it and now can't seem to do it any other way. I like your "picking up all the stones in the field" thought--that's certainly what we have to do in order to have a quality product when we're done.
Thank you as always for chiming in, here.
I come up with idea and ruminate on it forever. The story usually doesn't get going until I have attached the first idea to some idea I find intriguing. Then I write by hand, maybe a page at a time. It takes forever, because I think I know where I'm going, but often change directions as I go. After each session of writing it out a page or so, I type it up and tinker a bit. When I'm done, I "put it in a drawer" for a month. Then I look at it again and can see all the flaws. After that, I do maybe 5 drafts--printing each out, marking on it with a pen, printing it out again, etc. Then I worry for another couple of weeks that it's not good enough, and tinker with it more. Sometimes I realize it is, in fact, not good enough, and I never submit it. Other times I submit it and get rejected, but about 70% of the time when I submit, it gets accepted. I know that sounds good, but keep in mind I'm very selective about which stories I submit. I'm so slow, but it seems to be the only way I can do it.
ReplyDeleteSlowly but surely, right? Sounds reasonable to me. Just another example of a writer who has found what works best for him, and what he should continue doing (because it does).
DeleteIt's so interesting to me to find out how other writers approach all this, and to confirm that there are indeed many different ways to create marketable stories.
Thank you, Matthew, for stopping in here at SleuthSayers. Your insight is appreciated!