SleuthSister Melodie Campbell and I have written about the Bechdel Test, a measure of whether a movie has 1. two named female characters; 2. who talk to one another; 3. about something other than a man. Both Melodie and I came up with excellent lists of movies that met the Bechdel criteria, neither of which included most of the movies our SleuthBrothers spend a lot of what journalists used to call column inches writing about.
https://www.sleuthsayers.org/2024/06/sleuthsisters-movies-and-bechdel-test.html
https://www.sleuthsayers.org/2024/06/sleuthsisters-movies-and-bechdel-test_01994901369.html
The thought that bubbled up one morning, as I lay in that state between sleeping and waking when so many of my creative notions come to me, was that it might be illuminating to apply the Bechdel standard to real life. We get a strong cultural message that when women talk to each other, it is mostly about "men," as in the award-winning country song: I'm gonna love you forever/ forever and ever, amen/ as long as old men sit and talk about the weather/ as long as old women sit and talk about old men... or in these enlightened times, about intimate relationships regardless of gender—or else about sex, clothes, and shopping, as in Sex in the City. Maybe that describes some women's lives, but it has nothing to do with mine.
So what do I talk about with the women in my life?
Let's start with my SleuthSisters: Melodie Campbell and Eve Fisher, with whom I share an ongoing conversation via daily comments on the SleuthSayers blog posts, sometimes joined by Janice Law and blog newcomer Anna Scotti on literature, writing, language, movies and tv; and on to one-on-one emails for fuller exchanges on politics; sharing, comparing, and discussing our own childhoods, ethnicities, families, and environments; telling funny stories, and laughing at each other’s jokes.
I meet weekly on Zoom with a group of women in our sixties, seventies, and eighties to discuss how we experience the aging process. There's a lot of common ground as well as striking differences in how we're doing and how we're taking getting older. Many of us have become friends who stay in touch via group and individual texts as well as phone calls and Zoom visits.
Some conversations are the proverbial “organ recital” of consequences of aging, from deficits in hearing, mobility, and memory to diagnoses such as Parkinson’s, heart disease, and cancer to procedures from colonoscopy to hip and knee replacement to nuisances like shrinking in height. We also talk about our children, grandchildren, and aging parents if we still have them. We also talk about retirement, which everybody perceives differently; creativity, which does not diminish with age; travel, which some of us do extensively; and how we use structured and unstructured time. We talk about loss, death, and sexuality from the perspective of aging women, which is a far cry from "talking about old men." We talk about self-care, including exercise, bodywork, spiritual practice of various kinds. Occasionally we talk about our childhoods and families. And like everybody else in these complicated times, we compare notes on how we deal with the state of the world without freaking out.
As for my longtime friends of sixty and seventy years: what don’t we talk about! My surviving friends in other countries (six in France, one each in the Netherlands, UK, Africa, and Australia) are always interested in my perspective on what’s happening in the US, political, economic, and sociological. With my Jewish women friends from childhood on, I always had a tremendous amount of common ground. Now political challenges have fragmented our opinions, but we still call on longtime affection and frankness to connect with each other across various divides. So we still talk about family, aging, losses, life cycle changes, activities and new ventures, the organ recital, what the kids and grandkids are doing, and what happened to the world we tried so hard to make a better place.
What about my most active friendships? With one friend, who lives in New York, I talk about the state of academia, finances, and music. With another, who lives in San Francisco and whom I've known since we were eleven, we talk about our mothers and our sisters; good food—she's a recreational cook, and we both live in foodie cities; memories, mutual friends, and losses; she talks about Bay Area culture, I about New York museums and concerts; she about her activities, bocce and knitting, I about my writing, my mystery activities, my garden, my photography, my ocean swimming, and my relationship with Central Park.
We all have plenty to talk about besides men!
02 March 2026
Applying the Bechdel Test to Real Life
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A gift for friendship is one of life's great assets!
ReplyDeleteHow true, Janice. I'm especially grateful nowadays, when everyone's opinion is at least slightly different from everyone else's.
DeleteMen seldom talk to one another about literature, writing, language, art, movies, tv, politics, sharing our childhoods, ethnicities, families, and environments, or any sort of deep feelings. Perhaps the world would be a better place if we did.
ReplyDeleteWhat men talk about is usually sports and the occasional fart joke -- which may explain why we think we are the dominate sex. We are, aren;t we?
Haha, Jerry. The guys on SleuthSayers talk about the first few of those. I wish more of them, like you, commented on each other's posts. I appreciate your willingness to chime in.
DeleteWhat an interesting post. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Leone.
DeleteOh Liz- what a wonderful column to read with my morning coffee! Thanks so much for gesturing to me, and for the incredible insights into female friendship. I value my friendship with you, and the gals on here, so much. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteAnd Jerry - I am laughing! My husband, a great guy who talks to me about politics, religion, health, culture, is very much a sports guy. With his life-long friends, he talks mainly sports. And when they can't get together to play golf due to injuries, he's at a loss. They don't seem to get together in person just to talk. It's a strange new culture I'm witnessing, and you stated it well.
Liz and Melodie, I entirely agree. I love our exchanges so much. And with my local friends, and on-line gang, it's the same. A wide range of subects, from movies to toenails to why the hell do I wake up at 3 AM every freaking night?
DeleteMen seem more isolated. I've often compared modern humans to bison: the males go out on their own, maybe with a couple of others, until the rut season, when they come back and try to mate, while the females live in a tribe with or without the young. We live longer.
And on the other front (I can go on and on...) It amazes me the top movie lists of men vs women - hoe different they are. Men don't even seem to realize that women aren't well-represented (or barely represented at all) in their favourite movies. I've heard from male writer friends (novelists) that the secondary woman character they do have in their book is probably their own personal fantasy, as I suppose men in romance books written by women are. And as a famous Hollywood scriptwriter once told me, 4 out of 5 movies are directed toward 16-24 year old males. I guess that explains part of it.
ReplyDeleteMel, I'll keep using the term "boy books" as long as they keep insisting that "women's fiction" is a genre, overtly warning men not to read it, but not categorizing a matching "men's fiction," though we all know it when we read it. Elaine Viets wrote a a wonderful article about the male romance novel 20+ years ago. The late Stuart Woods's 75 Stone Barrington novels are a good example: nubile young women keep jumping eagerly into bed with older male protag who keeps aging...and aging...and aging.
DeleteOh, I know! Robert Heinlein's sci-fi stuff is full of young nubile women finding much older men bangable. And the middle-aged woman who didn't want him was usually a villain. The one trend that I don't like, that apparently hasn't yet died, in chick-lit is the strong man who doesn't speak much and is sometimes cruel, but secretly loves her and will bring her to the peak of passion... How about some hot artist of an appropriate age who'd never dream of physically hurting her, has a range of great ideas and topics, and will keep her up all night talking and pleasuring? (That's how I got together with my husband!)
DeleteEve, I mentioned Heinlein in a comment on another post a few days ago. The book I threw in the trash was the one where the guy "apologized" to the woman protag years later for participating in the gang rape by saying he "couldn't resist" because she was "just so sexy." Arrrghh!!!
DeleteGood stuff. I have said before that I applied the Bechdel Test to my novel GREENFELLAS and it resulted in me doing a gender switch to one of my characters - and improved the book.
ReplyDeleteRob, as I've said before, I loved Greenfellas.
DeleteFirst of all, I am (as Liz points out) the newbie here, and I've never heard the term "SleuthSisters," but I'll be using it on the regular going forward! Recently, I stumbled across my parents' favorite TV show, The Closer (2000's), and have been delighted by it. It's smart, funny, dramatic, well-written, well-acted, and the eponymous main character is a woman. It stars the formidable Kyra Sedgewick, using a pretty lame Georgia accent, but otherwise doing a bang-up job. Terrific show. EXCEPT. The only other regular female character is Lt. Irene Daniels, a supposed computer whiz who has VERY few lines except for the episodes that feature her ongoing quarrels with a former boyfriend. The other squad members and all of Sedgewick's colleagues and her boss are male. Every one of them has easily ten times the lines that Daniels does - and apparently, after the first few seasons, she leaves the show. Disappointing. It's as if the one main character being female has to be balanced out by a dearth of females otherwise. Compare Law and Order SVU, which recently brought back Kelly Giddish to play second to Mariska Hargatay's main character. So...maybe we have improved a bit? Great column, Liz!
ReplyDeleteThanks, Anna. Do check out my post and Melodie's (links in this post, above) for great movies that meet the criteria. It's always great when you join in on the schmoozing here.
Delete