tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post2724536285312140072..comments2024-03-19T05:28:00.356-04:00Comments on SleuthSayers: To Noir or to Not NoirLeigh Lundinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07921276795499571578noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-87483150663384358262017-04-07T23:58:02.956-04:002017-04-07T23:58:02.956-04:00Great. Now I want meatballs. Janice is right. They...Great. Now I want meatballs. Janice is right. They do look tasty. But if I eat them now, at nearly midnight, they will repeat on me, and I'll be stuck staying up all night, which could lead to a dark night of the soul, with me needing sleep but unable to sleep and my demons coming out and ... ooh, noir.Barb Goffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16013123434790272424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-62242202213531905052017-04-07T20:03:37.883-04:002017-04-07T20:03:37.883-04:00RT. your NOIR article is excellent. Thanks for rem...RT. your NOIR article is excellent. Thanks for reminding me about it.O'Neil De Nouxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03142721824657611738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-42154171693352729772017-04-07T16:59:00.579-04:002017-04-07T16:59:00.579-04:00O'Neil, This was a great article. I'd say ...O'Neil, This was a great article. I'd say more about noir, but I already said my piece on the subject last February: 02/26/17 http://www.sleuthsayers.org/2017/02/paint-it-black.html R.T. Lawtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15523486296396710227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-85615507263793962732017-04-07T12:42:07.620-04:002017-04-07T12:42:07.620-04:00I've written one story for a noir anthology--J...I've written one story for a noir anthology--Jewish Noir--and when I submitted it, I figured the editor would probably reject it because it doesn't fit Penzler's definition—the protagonist is driven by misguided idealism and refusal to compromise, not by greed, lust, jealousy (well, maybe a little jealousy), or alienation; in a way, his downfall is too much morality, not a lack of morality. I figured that might make the story a tragedy but didn’t necessarily make it noir. Luckily for me, Ken Wishnia evidently has a broader definition of noir than Otto Penzler does. I like John's suggestion that most “dark” mysteries could be considered noir—after all, the term is derived from the French word for “black.” As long as the protagonist meets a dismal end and is brought down at least partly by his or her own flaws, that’s noir enough for me. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17673578800047888317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-542390624262053522017-04-07T11:27:29.961-04:002017-04-07T11:27:29.961-04:00O'Neil, I've read many if not most of your...O'Neil, I've read many if not most of your stories, and I think several qualify as noir (at least using Otto's definition). Like you, I don't think I write many noir stories--I once said that noir (to me) usually involves a smart, manipulative lady and a not-so-smart, easy-to-manipulate guy--but I do like the idea that most "dark" mysteries fall into the noir category. Who cares anyway, if it's a good story?John Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001712728130488485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-37917000049668654612017-04-07T11:07:53.090-04:002017-04-07T11:07:53.090-04:00A thought-provoking post, O'Neil.
Noir is one...A thought-provoking post, O'Neil.<br /><br />Noir is one of those things I guess I know when I see. I like both Penzler's definition and Zeltserman's comment, but they may be too narrow. Noir covers a huge spectrum, not just "crime/mystery." <br /><br />I think of it as like urban naturalism in the late 19th to early 20th century. Dreiser, Crane, Norris, and several others (even Wharton in Ethan Frome) could probably be considered Noir. And certainly many of the Europeans who started the Naturalist movement.<br /><br />I've written a few stories that might qualify as noir and I've told myself it would be good for me to try others. Right now, a lot of my stuff falls through the cracks, neither fish noir fowl, so to speak. <br /><br />I think dark humor works well in Noir, too. Block, Westlake, McBain, Crumley...Steve Liskowhttp://www.steveliskow.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-26405316572501329892017-04-07T09:17:21.902-04:002017-04-07T09:17:21.902-04:00You're right, Gerald. My friends who keyword t...You're right, Gerald. My friends who keyword their eBooks as thrillers do better than a slob like me who keywords my books as crime fiction. Then again, they just might be writing better books. THRILLER and NOIR are excellent marketing terms. I'm ambidextrous - I think I can write noir and demi-noir or zircon-noir. We'll see.O'Neil De Nouxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03142721824657611738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-10524997432578936892017-04-07T08:02:40.315-04:002017-04-07T08:02:40.315-04:00I tend to think of noir in line with Penzler's...I tend to think of noir in line with Penzler's definition, but from a marketing angle, I wonder if a book sells better with a hip label, as "noir" seems to have been the past few years. I don't know exactly what defines a "thriller," but the word sounds more exciting than "mystery," and "mystery" or "caper" sounds more intriguing than "crime".Gerald Sohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571407711439433431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-23948719470364678822017-04-07T08:01:22.452-04:002017-04-07T08:01:22.452-04:00I always feel that whatever the genre, it is whate...I always feel that whatever the genre, it is whatever you can get away with.<br /><br />However defined, those look like tasty meatballs.janice lawnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-25382974732244513972017-04-07T03:46:59.498-04:002017-04-07T03:46:59.498-04:00I'll take my spaghetti and meatballs with a si...I'll take my spaghetti and meatballs with a side of noir, or should that be, my noir with a side of spaghetti and meatballs? Paul D. Markshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15466234708772287399noreply@blogger.com