tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post6004986354527426979..comments2024-03-29T11:16:37.695-04:00Comments on SleuthSayers: "I said, 'He said,'" she said.Leigh Lundinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07921276795499571578noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-8253188825431627182018-02-03T22:34:00.729-05:002018-02-03T22:34:00.729-05:00"I agree with Jeff," he agreed.
By the ..."I agree with Jeff," he agreed.<br /><br />By the way, here's what I think is an interesting example from the novel <i>Worst Fears</i>, by Fay Weldon. (I found it in <i>Spunk & Bite</i>, by Arthur Plotnik.) Alternating "said" with other descriptive tags seems to work well here:<br /><br />"You prurient old cow!" shouted Alexandra.<br />"I understand your anger," said Leah.<br />"No one understands my anger!" shrieked Alexandra.<br />"This session is at an end," said Leah.John Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001712728130488485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-17930625414112490502018-02-03T21:36:21.407-05:002018-02-03T21:36:21.407-05:00I'm with those who go with "said." E...I'm with those who go with "said." Even though a little variety may be appropriate ("shouted," "yelled," "sobbed," "whispered") depending on the situation, he said. :)Jeff Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00316081079528920123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-15172108579067309312018-02-03T15:36:46.334-05:002018-02-03T15:36:46.334-05:00Liz, I'll have the Word Police stop by your ad...Liz, I'll have the Word Police stop by your address, too.<br /><br />The strange thing is, I do use tags now and then when only two people are talking, for the very reason we mentioned earlier: it can sometimes help the rhythm of what's being said. I can't resist thoughts of Larry McMurtry, here. In <i>Lonesome Dove</i> he used "said" constantly, and at times it certainly wasn't needed. He sometimes even used it when the reader had no doubt at all who the speaker was. And, hey, it won the Pulitzer Prize. <br /><br />Just differences in style.John Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001712728130488485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-54126786859044355132018-02-03T14:51:12.032-05:002018-02-03T14:51:12.032-05:00LOL, I usually don't use tags at all if there ...LOL, I usually don't use tags at all if there are only two people in a conversation. In the story I was talking about yesterday, in a two-person conversation, I said one of the characters <i>thundered</i>. This was because he was extremely old & soft-spoken & I wanted the reader to realize he was completely cranked up.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00239163766419735693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-89728248782645835662018-02-03T13:04:04.190-05:002018-02-03T13:04:04.190-05:00Laughing.Laughing.Barb Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16470220932617188498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-24555575728151086482018-02-03T11:29:56.931-05:002018-02-03T11:29:56.931-05:00Barb, you most certainly have the right to use all...Barb, you most certainly have the right to use all of it. As mentioned, this is just one of those issues where everyone has his or her own opinion. I do occasionally have my characters scream or mutter or whatever seems best at the time. I think OVERuse of that kind of thing is what most of us are talking about.<br /><br />I'll send the Word Police right over to your address.John Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001712728130488485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-62768212550306531492018-02-03T10:55:12.469-05:002018-02-03T10:55:12.469-05:00The prohibition against anything but said drives m...The prohibition against anything but said drives me crazy. English is a big, beautiful language and I reserve the right to use all of it. My characters usually say, but sometimes they ask, they answer, they respond, they tell him or her. They even very occasionally complain, tease or joke. Come and get me, Word Police.Barb Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16470220932617188498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-54967064682149365532018-02-03T10:19:49.735-05:002018-02-03T10:19:49.735-05:00Michael and Art -- Great thoughts, here. Yes, I o...Michael and Art -- Great thoughts, here. Yes, I often tell students that inserting a dialogue tag in the right place can be a great way to control the rhythm of the sentence or paragraph. And can sometimes even cause a pause that'll allow you to change the subject while staying with the same speaker. "It's been good seeing you again," he said. "There, that's my house, on the left."<br /><br />Using tags to do more than just ID the speaker is yet another writing tool, right?John Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001712728130488485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-77179072795407645652018-02-03T10:06:03.849-05:002018-02-03T10:06:03.849-05:00Great point, Michael! I always see students as wel...Great point, Michael! I always see students as well who have trouble with placement of those tags--both in terms of the rhythm of a sentence (of an effect, of an emotion) and in terms of simply letting a reader know who's speaking. Too often, I'll see long (loooong) paragraphs of dialogue--where you only discover at the very end who's actually saying those words. So easy to just insert a tag after the first sentence, and let the monologue continue, a little more grounded. Art Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02409008167752619352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-28857509437225816352018-02-03T10:01:30.244-05:002018-02-03T10:01:30.244-05:00While choice of attribution verb is important in a...While choice of attribution verb is important in a dialog tag—I favor "said" but occasionally use others—placement of the dialog tag can be just as important, and it is rarely discussed. Many writers routinely stick dialog tags at the end:<br /><br />"Good morning, Sara," Bob said.<br />"Good morning to you, too," Sara said.<br /><br />While "said is almost invisible to readers," to quote Melodie, it isn't completely invisible, and the use and placement of any dialog tag impacts the rhythm of a sentence.<br /><br />Consider this famous bit (well, famous to those of us of a certain age) and examine how placement of the dialog tag impacts how you read and "hear" it:<br /><br />"Take my wife. Please," he said.<br /><br />He said, "Take my wife. Please."<br /><br />"Take my wife," he said. "Please."<br /><br />By interrupting the dialog with a dialog tag, a longer pause than that implied by the period is created and the punchline is stronger because of it.<br /><br />This is especially important to consider at the end of a scene or the end of a story.<br /><br />Writers craft an engaging, witty, or significant bit of dialog to end a scene or story and then drop a turd on it by putting a dialog tag at the end, killing the impact and destroying the rhythm.<br /><br />For example (and excuse me for not being brilliant, witty, or significant off the top of my head):<br /><br />Sara has waited through 5,000 words for Bob to tell her what she longs to hear and gets this:<br /><br />Bob held Sara's hands and stared deep into her eyes. "I love you," he said.<br /><br />The two-word dialog tag tacked on the end steps on the story's punchline.<br /><br />Better options include:<br /><br />Bob held Sara's hands, stared deep into her eyes, and said. "I love you."<br /><br />or<br /><br />Bob held Sara's hands and stared deep into her eyes. "I love you."<br /><br />Thus, choice of attribution verb is important when crafting dialog tags, but so is placement of dialog tags.<br /><br />Michael Brackenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072019804281421944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-42760485252768819682018-02-03T09:44:41.197-05:002018-02-03T09:44:41.197-05:00O'Neil, that IS a great example. A silly syno...O'Neil, that IS a great example. A silly synonym and extra exclamation points do not a good impression make, on an editor. And yes, when there are only two speakers, the need for any dialogue tags is reduced--so long as the reader doesn't lose track of who's saying what.<br /><br />Art, I'm glad you mentioned other ways of identifying speakers. Inserting names into the dialogue itself certainly works, and those little beats of action. If Joe is scratching his chin in the same paragraph as his dialogue, you probably don't need a "Joe said"--and certainly not a "Joe ejaculated."<br /><br />Josh, I actually once saw a "he asseverated," in a class story. And 'retort" is one of those synonyms I especially hate to see. The funny thing is, many beginning writers seem to try really hard to never use ANY dialogue attributions. At all. And after awhile that can become almost as distracting as the bad attributions.<br /><br />Well said, Steve: the same IS true in narration. And even though I loved the Ludlum books, and own every one of them, he had a lot of quirks. One was a reluctance to repeat a name. He'd say things like "Bourne ran down the street, and then Jason turned and fired a shot," even though he was talking about the same guy. That got to be especially confusing when there were a bunch of characters sitting at a conference table and he'd keep switching between the first and last names (and titles) of the attendees. But I sure loved the plots.<br /><br />Melodie, that's always the case, isn't it?--Learn the rules, THEN break them when appropriate. Sounds like a lot of y'all agree on this "said" issue. I think it's one of those things editors really watch for. John Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001712728130488485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-90593466385055854332018-02-03T08:36:57.938-05:002018-02-03T08:36:57.938-05:00I teach my students that said is almost invisible ...I teach my students that said is almost invisible to readers. Which is good, in this case. They read the dialogue, catch the name of the speaker, and don't trip over the verb. If you say 'exclaimed' or other verbs, the readers has to read that, because they aren't expecting that word. It slows the dialogue. But like all rules, there are times when it's good to do that. I tell my students, know the rules. And then decide when it's in your interest to break them.Melodie Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870938103759179132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-82938381225098961722018-02-03T08:36:47.155-05:002018-02-03T08:36:47.155-05:00I agree, John.
When I was involved in theater (ge...I agree, John.<br /><br />When I was involved in theater (generally four or five productions a year), we used to comment on the plays where stage directions told the actor how to deliver the line. I always said that if the actor can't tell from the context, the line is poorly written. The same is true in narration. If the reader can't tell that the speaker snarled, bellowed, whined or whatever, the dialogue isn't clear.<br /><br />I still remember the first time I read Conrad's Lord Jim. I had to re-read the first two pages because the prose was so exquisite I got caught up in that instead of the story. That's both good and bad, and I see it in literary fiction all the time. We end up paying attention to the brilliance of the writer's vocabulary instead of the story he PURPORTS to tell.<br /><br />I've used the Ludlum review excerpt in my dialogue workshops, too.<br /><br />"Said" is my default dialogue word. And asked.<br /><br />'Nuff asserted.Steve Liskowhttp://www.steveliskow.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-88555116106417127942018-02-03T08:24:12.501-05:002018-02-03T08:24:12.501-05:00So you asseverate, Floyd.
No, wait, doesn't s...So <i>you</i> asseverate, Floyd.<br /><br />No, wait, doesn't sound right. Um, so <i>you</i> exclaim, Mr. Floyd.<br /><br />No, still clumsy. How about: So <i>you</i> retort, Floyd-o.<br /><br />Damn, no, terrible.<br /><br />Okay, fine, so <i>you</i> say, John.<br /><br />Yeah, actually, that <i>is</i> better, isn't it?joshpachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123432071405643210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-79295117799585174242018-02-03T07:26:45.668-05:002018-02-03T07:26:45.668-05:00This is one of my own pet peeves in writing worksh...This is one of my own pet peeves in writing workshops, John. Too often I see evidence of students with thesaurus in hand (or online) as they work through their dialogue tags: argued, exclaimed, cried, exhorted, amended, replied. Worse are those words that aren't even synonyms for said but actions in addition to the dialogue: he laughed, she sighed. Like you, I'll occasionally sub one in myself ("whispered" is a good example, as you point out), but generally, I'm pretty straightforward about it--and when possible try to avoid at all, either letting the dialogue do all the work of identifying speaker (the best dialogue will) or having a sentence of some action in place of the dialogue tag to "tag" the speaker in its own way--and maybe enhance the scene overall. (Mario Vargas Llosa took this purposefully to some extremes in his novel Captain Pantoja and the Special Service, though I wish he or the translator had used periods instead of commas throughout--give it a look.) Art Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02409008167752619352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-55548970415647859232018-02-03T05:33:58.701-05:002018-02-03T05:33:58.701-05:00When i first began wrting I made a long list of wo...When i first began wrting I made a long list of words to use instead of said. It didn't take long for me to thow away that list. Said or nothing if there's only two people talking in a scene. During the few times I edited a magazine, my favorite example of bad came with the opening line, "Get out!!!" he ejaculated. I mean, come on. Three exclamation points.O'Neil De Nouxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03142721824657611738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-78866232329849481102018-02-03T00:49:01.915-05:002018-02-03T00:49:01.915-05:00Thanks, Barb--good point. As I mentioned, I too s...Thanks, Barb--good point. As I mentioned, I too sometimes have my characters whispering or shouting. Another example might be to use a tag that suggests something other than what the reader might expect, like "What a great day," he grumbled. But I usually find that if the dialogue's good enough, the descriptive tags just aren't needed. John Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001712728130488485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-6179260179849390152018-02-03T00:24:58.956-05:002018-02-03T00:24:58.956-05:00Good column, John. I agree about "said."...Good column, John. I agree about "said." But I use "asked" and, when appropriate, tags that provide information the dialogue itself doesn't show, which usually is volume, i.e., words such as whisper and yell. Barb Goffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16013123434790272424noreply@blogger.com