tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post1473463672535945486..comments2024-03-29T04:38:14.302-04:00Comments on SleuthSayers: Know the Rules You’re Breaking (THE most controversial post you’ll see from me)Leigh Lundinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07921276795499571578noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-3521609894119692612017-02-25T15:41:25.133-05:002017-02-25T15:41:25.133-05:00Absolutely, Steve! If you are a bestselling autho...Absolutely, Steve! If you are a bestselling author breaking the rules, have at it!Melodie Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870938103759179132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-8866438861258708282017-02-25T14:40:01.970-05:002017-02-25T14:40:01.970-05:00The first example of present tense I can cite offh...The first example of present tense I can cite offhand--too lazy to research a mere matter of taste--is Charles Dickens in Bleak House. Several chapters are in present tense. Chas doesn't satisfy my requirements for either "modern" or "trendy." <br /><br />Macauley and Lannon called it a "frequent cliche" in 1987. I'm sure I could find many examples of it in major fiction besides Toni Morrison if I cared to, but why bother. Toni's got a Nobel Prize.<br /><br />Taste is personal. I use present tense and it works for me. I also dislike avocados, decaf, and new age music. <br /><br />On the POV thing, don't both Robert Crais and Laura Lippman occasionally use both first and third in the same novel? Can't remember. Again, if it works, don't screw with it.<br /><br />Steve Liskowhttp://www.steveliskow.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-16875691461700701242017-02-25T12:35:23.235-05:002017-02-25T12:35:23.235-05:00John and BK, thank you for commenting! It's s...John and BK, thank you for commenting! It's strange that present tense has become trendy. I wish I could read it, but I simply can't. Every time I hit a present tense verb, I'm pitched out of the story. Maybe too many years as a college prof marking papers? grinMelodie Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870938103759179132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-17814824396054050872017-02-25T12:32:12.280-05:002017-02-25T12:32:12.280-05:00Michael, I did a similar type of 'handover'...Michael, I did a similar type of 'handover' in a fantasy series I write. I think that's fine, because you are warning the reader, and the protagonist is 'in on it.' In Rowena and the Dark Lord, I separate the protagonist from her sidekick Kendra, and at one point, a section from Kendra's diary is given. <br />What drives me nuts is being in the protagonist's head when she is telling the story in first person, and then suddenly I find, next chapter, I'm in the villain's head. Where did the storyteller go? Melodie Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870938103759179132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-77380296091551643852017-02-25T12:24:11.215-05:002017-02-25T12:24:11.215-05:00I enjoyed your post, Melodie. Like you, I don'...I enjoyed your post, Melodie. Like you, I don't care for present-tense narration--I never use it, and I generally don't enjoy reading it. To me, it feels a little bit too precious, a little bit too self-conscious and artsy. The present tense makes it harder for me to get absorbed in the world of a story or novel because it's a constant reminder that it's an artificial world created by a writer. I use both first-person and third-person POV, but even when I'm using a third-person narrator, I tend to put the protagonist in every scene and always present things from his or her POV. I did write one story that didn't have a single protagonist and hinged on having three people see or talk about the same group of objects from three very different perspectives, but usually I stay inside one character's head for the duration.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17673578800047888317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-88094793509089108492017-02-25T10:45:26.922-05:002017-02-25T10:45:26.922-05:00But the narrator/protagonist can die if the story ...But the narrator/protagonist can die if the story is written in first-person present tense. Right?<br /><br />I learned a trick to using a mix of first-person and third-person while reading James Lee Burke's Dave Robicheaux novels, and that's how the author transitions from one to the other. I'm over-simplifying, but the transition from first to third goes something like:<br /><br />I didn't know then, but I later learned [and then the third-person section, which might be one or more scenes, begins].<br /><br />Of course, there's a similar transition back to first-person narration.<br /><br />I've used this a few times in short stories, but it must be done carefully to be effective.Michael Brackenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072019804281421944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-33122005927683471352017-02-25T09:57:08.803-05:002017-02-25T09:57:08.803-05:00Interesting post, Melodie! Like Eve, I really don...Interesting post, Melodie! Like Eve, I really don't like present-tense fiction, so I never write in present tense. I will now and then READ a story or novel written in present tense, but it never really "feels" right. As for POV, I like to read fiction written in either first- or third-person (it truly does depend on the story, to me), but I tend to write more in third person than first. Maybe because, in certain kinds of stories, it's sometimes easier to generate suspense. I'm still fascinated by the rule-breaking technique of including both first-person chapters and third-person chapters in the same novel--it's the kind of thing that shouldn't work, but sometimes it does. I just finished reading one yesterday: <i>Revelation</i>, by Robert Knott--it's a continuation of the Virgil Cole series begun by the late Robert B. Parker.John Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001712728130488485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-37351159599115897712017-02-25T09:34:28.027-05:002017-02-25T09:34:28.027-05:00Eve, if given a choice, I ALWAYS write in first pe...Eve, if given a choice, I ALWAYS write in first person. I like a story told from one viewpoint. Same with reading. As long as the writer follows the rules, that is, and doesn't throw me into someone else's head when they've already made that first person promise to me.<br />But that's the joy of being a writer. We can tell a story the way we want to.Melodie Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870938103759179132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-82246450925156181252017-02-25T09:30:26.424-05:002017-02-25T09:30:26.424-05:00Thank you, Steve! I think I set out with the post...Thank you, Steve! I think I set out with the post simply to explain why the conventions of writing fiction were established as they are. Most of my students have no idea there are reasons. And absolutely, the delight is the complete freedom we have as writers to do exactly what we want - to tell a story the exact way we wish to. Thanks for commenting!Melodie Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870938103759179132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-6117262270834474232017-02-25T09:27:14.304-05:002017-02-25T09:27:14.304-05:00Thanks for commenting, Janet! I wrote this thinki...Thanks for commenting, Janet! I wrote this thinking about all the aspiring authors I've met who don't think they need to learn the craft. Sadly, they think that by just having an original idea for a plot (and it's often not original) publishers will fall all over them, and 'fix anything that's wrong.' Sigh. Those days are long gone, if they ever existed.Melodie Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870938103759179132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-78589011384790105652017-02-25T09:19:54.063-05:002017-02-25T09:19:54.063-05:00Amen, Melodie. Personally, I'm one of those w...Amen, Melodie. Personally, I'm one of those who hates present tense novels (sorry Steve). Just irritates me. I like past tense. But I have no problem with first or third person narration. I've used both, more first than third, to be honest. <br />But yeah, know the rules you're breaking. Picasso sure as heck did. Check out some of his early work...Eve Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03015761600962360110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-6466898816151062472017-02-25T09:02:15.435-05:002017-02-25T09:02:15.435-05:00Great post, Melodie.
I agree, you have to underst...Great post, Melodie.<br /><br />I agree, you have to understand WHY the rules are rules before you have any business trying to break them. They're rules because they work.<br /><br />When I taught, I always insisted on rules, too. You have to understand how to do the basics: plot, character, etc. Besides, aren't publishers' guidelines rules, too? If you can't match the word count or theme, you're not going to sell much.<br /><br />Having said that, I've written seven of my eleven novels in present tense. I know many editors don't like it (didn't know the percentage until you gave it here), but my logic is somewhat different. When I was growing up and playing sports, we used to listen to baseball games on the radio and early TV, and sports announcers give the play-by-play in present tense. I guess it feels natural to me. I've also acted and directed in theater, which is always in present tense.<br /><br />I actually started one of my early books in past tense and got blocked. Just as an experiment, I tried changing to present and it worked. <br /><br />Good post for a Saturday morning over my coffee.<br /><br />Steve Liskowhttp://www.steveliskow.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3119105822589181967.post-82393182094540803042017-02-25T08:40:32.192-05:002017-02-25T08:40:32.192-05:00I like your last sentence- it is so important in a...I like your last sentence- it is so important in any writing from the simplest PR release to the most complex sonnet to know the expected format. Learning to reproduce formulas is the first step to being able to modify and break them for artistic reasons.janice lawnoreply@blogger.com